October 10, 2004
Gordon: Would you
shoot craps with Rich Vos, Chico?
Gordon: Anyways, we are back with one of our favorites,
Take A Side. In this
game, We'll give out a question, and each of the
debaters MUST take a side.
Jeff Suchard will be one of the debaters. Who will
Jeff: It's unanimous.
Gordon: I guess it's me. (Throws specially made
Jeff: None shall defeat me... Umm... except for Ken.
Joe: Round one....FIGHT!
Jeff: Rockem Sockem robots ready for action!
Gordon: As usual, Joe, Jason and Chico are the judges, 2
out of three
decisions gets the points.
Chico: Tokyo-WLTI... Are.. you... READY!
Gordon: Let's play.
Chico: Okay, Joe. Start us off, please.
Jeff: By the way, are there any particular topics that
might come up, or
Gordon: Anything goes.
Chico: It's anything-goes and no-holds barred.
Jeff: Good, cause I know how to solve the problem in
Joe: First question: Q #1 - This season of Survivor is
the most boring one -
Gordon: Since Jeff is the guest, Jeff always answers
first, making my job, as
the person who has to counter, harder.
Jeff: I disagree with the statement. The casting
producer has an obvious
breast-fetish. Since I do too, I do not think this
season is so horrible. How do
you counter that, Gordon?
Gordon: ZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzOh, I was thinking of
this season - sorry. It
always gets interesting once it gets to the merge, but
the tribes are already
divided down the line by age, barring any sort of twist,
we know that the
young women and men are toast - which means that even
when we do merge, all of
the attractive people will be gone, and we'll have
nothing but shclumpy titties
left to look at. Yuck.
Jason: (there's an image.....)
Jeff: Your point about it getting interesting at the
merge only supports my
argument. We know that the game gets progressively more
interesting as it goes
Gordon: But we're not there yet, and so far, it's very
boring. We know who's
going to be eliminated, and I don't think Scout nor
Twila will be making a
centerfold pictures and time in the future.
Jeff: We only know for the men's team who is leaving
Gordon: Lisa is gone for the women or Julie.
Jeff: The women still don't have as strong a voting
block, although I will
admit that they may send the young'uns home.
Gordon: Which means that more youth is leaving.
Jeff: But won't the elders play a more interesting game
as things progress?
It appears that we are actually arguing slightly
different things. I'm looking
at the whole season, and you are looking at the shows to
date. And don't
forget the earthquake and other "elements of danger"(R)
Gordon: I doubt it - these people don't really play the
game in terms of
merge. I expect a pagonging of the men vs. the women, or
the women vs. the men.
Things will get interesting when there are 5 people left
- but that's after 10
episodes, which is the bulk of the season. Wake me up in
2 months. Zzzzzzzzz....
Jeff: The season with porn-star Brian was much worse
than what we have now.
So it doesn't matter if you are bored now. This season
is not the most boring.
Gordon: At least we had a primordial scream by Ghandia.
What memorable thing
can you say about any of the contestants?
Jeff: They've got boobs. One was in Playboy BEFORE the
show, not invited
Gordon: Ghandia had boobs. Even Brian's wife had boobs -
and she's much more
interesting than any of this season's cast. Brian's
wife's boobs would be more
compelling than this cast
Jeff: Yeah, and Sarge has man-boobs too. If you're into
Joe: Vote for Gordon. Judges?
Jason: Vote for.... Jeff. There's been worse.
Jeff: Tie breaker.
Chico: Well, bad news... Your fate rests in my hands
Joe: The good news?
Jason: .....did he say there was good news?
Chico: Jeff brought up an interesting point, that Gordon
reinforcing Jeff's arguments, so point to Jeff. The good
Chico: The GOOD news... I just saved a boatload of money
by switching car
Gordon: Hardy har har
Gordon: 0, Jeff: 1.
Joe: Jason's next. Ask your question.
Chico: Go, Jason!
Jason: Q #2 - Wheel of Fortune may now cause
blindness...watch with caution.
(ie; excessive graphics)
Jeff: Do I go first again?
Jeff: I argue that Wheel does not cause blindness.
Chico: Please explain.
Jeff: Around my house we call it "Wheel of Stupid
People", because these were
all the people who couldn't get on a "real" quizshow.
Jason: (Hence, why I'd be perfect on it)
Jeff: I have watched WoF maybe three times in the last
year, including once
this last week. And my eyesight has not been affected.
Gordon: Maybe you haven't been affected because you've
only watched it three
times in the past year. Are we really that excessive a
society that we have to
have graphics in EVERY facet of the game? Do we really
need a final spin
graphic - or an incredibly cheesy fake graphic of people
moving around behind the
contestants as they are spinning the wheel?
Jeff: The skill level required on this show panders to a
least-common-denominator demographic. They need "shiny
things that spin" (as my oldest daughter
likes to say) to keep them interested.
Gordon: And that bonus round coloring in the bonus wheel
- WHY? I am
surprised that no one has had seizures yet from seeing
that thing spin.
Gordon: Yes - wheel of Fortune's excessive graphics can
cause eye problems
Jeff: A more discriminating viewer will watch Jeopardy,
or even Millionaire,
and doesn't need all those beads and trinkets.
Gordon: Thanks for supporting my argument, Jeff. Too
many trinkets and eye
candy - the candy that is rotting out your eyeballs. We
need a graphic regulator
in there to save us all from the WOF computer animation
Jeff: But the question is whether it will actually cause
blindness. Of course
not. As a physician, I can tell you that while TV may
induce seizures in some (re: Mary Hart's voice) it will not cause blindness,
even if you sit too
Gordon: Rapid seizures in the brain could cause neural
problems - including
blindness. So yes, WOF COULD cause blindness.
Jeff: I am not supporting your argument, Gordon; please
don't try that
argument with me. It's been done. Medically speaking,
this is not possible.
Gordon: I think we're talking from a figurative sense
anyways, not literal.
Jeff: Are you suggesting actual blindness, or just
arguing that they don't
need all the new graphics?
Joe: The latter.
Chico: The latter.
Jeff: The question was regarding blindness, and I am
taking that literally
for my argument. Sometimes people write poorly worded
questions, you know...
Chico: yeah, but Jason did specify excessive graphics.
Jason: (look below that)
Jeff: There it is in black and white...well, blue.
Jason: (ie; excessive graphics)
Jeff: Yes, but actually causing blindness?! There is
figurative speech in the question.
Chico: Okay, the question was regarding graphics and
Gordon knew that, so
this one goes to him.
Jeff: Just you wait for my appeal letter in the mail! I
will research this
one so deeply your head will spin.
Gordon: We'll hire the WWTBAM team to make a judgement
on it =)
Chico: okay, for the record, Jason. Who'd you give it
Jason: As much as I want to give the point to Jeff for
his "shiny things that
spin" comment..... (because I like shiny things......
and spinny things) But
Gordon also said some bad things about the bonus wheel
and I love that thing,
at least. So I give the vote to ME!
Jeff: No... me!
Chico: Spinny things that shine! ... No, wait.
Jason: You still got the other two votes, Gordon....
stop bellyaching. :)
Gordon: No complaints from me =)
Gordon: 1* Jeff: 1
*Jeff's appeal letter is in the mail
Chico: Okay, next question. Spurned by the copycat
nature plaguing the genre,
there aren't really that many good ideas for new game
Jeff: I believe we are in a copycat phase of gameshows
and "reality" shows.
The differences between them are subtle, and usually
only enough to prevent a
successful copyright infringement suit. It has been said
(and I will say it
here) that there only 12 original stories in the world.
Every "new" thing is only
a varnishing over the old story. I would like to see a
gameshow, but it's not out there now.
Jason: ....only 12? *tear*
Chico: I know the feeling, Jay...
Gordon: At the Game Show Congress, there was a showcase
on the presentation
of new ideas. There were many innovative ideas that were
people inside the industry like Fremantle - and even Joe
Van Ginkel had an idea
that I thought was sound. I saw at least three of them
and played two of
them. There are many ideas out there. The problem isn't
the ideas - the problem is
that there are too many 'old hat' companies that keep
pitching the same
shows. The industry has the games - they need new
voices and the opportunity to
give someone else a chance to give ideas.
Jeff: They "said" these ideas were innovative, but
where's the proof of this?
How do you pitch these ideas? Usually, you say, "Well
it's like this other
show,...but different." Thus proving that it was
derivative of something else.
How can you possibly say that any new quiz show is
innovative? They are all
based on the concept of 1) ask a question, and 2) answer
the question, thus 3)
winning money or prizes.
Gordon: 2 years ago, the poker world took, over, and
last year Extreme
Dodgeball and The Apprentice made huge splashes in the
industry. The ideas are
definitely out there, its just a matter of giving them
the spotlight over the old
corporate way of thinking.
Jeff: The Apprentice is a popular show. BUT it is
essentially Survivor in the
board-room. It is not itself innovative. Survivor was an
innovation in its
time... but we are now talking about the currently
available shows. Almost all of
these are derivative.
Gordon: The Apprentice isn't Survivor because you are
not voting people off -
it is a Job Interview in the most cut-throat sense - and
that itself is new.
Extreme Dodgeball is certainly not derivative of any
other TV game show.
Joe: But it still sucks.
Gordon: Whether it sucks or doesn't isn't part of the
question - and it
Jeff: There is still a "voting" procedure in Apprentice.
Trump gets the final
vote (a minor deviation), but the contestants get to
choose who is on the
block with them. Extreme Dodgeball is simply the latest
incarnation of "Almost
Gordon: Its a great idea - which doesn't suck. There
will always be shows
every few years that come out and surprise you. American
Dodgeball, The Bachelor - they all are trademark shows -
and there will always be new
ones. ED isn't close to Almost Anything Goes - you
kidding me? Just when
someone says that all of the ideas are tapped out -
there will always be new ones.
Jeff: The Bachelor is just Survivor with more T&A.
Gordon: The Bachelor is a dating show.
Jeff: I did not mean to imply that these shows are
identical. I am pointing
out that they are not innovative, since they are closely
derived from similar
shows that are already on, or were already on.
Gordon: There will always be new innovative shows and
thinking - I remember
when WWTBAM came out that everyone said the game show
genre is dead now and
then Survivor showed up. The Bachelor is defintely not
derived from Survivor.
Jeff: While there may be new ideas to come, they are not
here now. The
biggest innovation, I maintain, was Survivor, and I have
seen nothing since that
comes close. That was over 5 years ago, wasn't it.
Gordon: The only thing they have in common is people
being eliminated. WPT
isn't innovative? ED isn't innovative? Would we be
talking about balls flying
around? Amazing Race isn't Innovative?
Jeff: Different than their sources, yes; but not
Gordon: They are all innovative and they have their own
sources. Explain to
me how the World Poker Tour is spawned from Survivor.
Jeff: Back to the 12 stories idea: Amazing Race = Around
the World in 80
Days, by Jules Verne. The only significant difference is
our modern technology.
Gordon: But it hasn't been done in the game show format
- that's what makes
Jeff: You are equating "innovative" with any difference;
I see no paradigm
shift. The differences are on the surface, while the
underlying story is the
Gordon: The question states new ideas for new game shows
- these are all new
ideas from new game shows, the questions didn't say
anything about reinventing
Chico: Okay, before this turns into a one-hour
Jeff: Using the term "genre" in the question implies
there is a definable
group of items.
Gordon: There has not been anything like Extreme
Dodgeball, Amazing Race, The
Bachelor, The Apprentice, or American Idol in the
American Game Show Market -
that's what makes it new and fresh and innovative - and
years down the line,
new ideas will come that will also make the market fresh
- it always happens
in the industry with a circular effect. The industry is
Jeff: What are the essential differences between them. I
differences are small.
Gordon: Dodgeball - an extreme contact sport. AR -
Traveling around the world
against competing teams, Bachelor - looking for love
among 15 people, WPT -
Competing in cards for over a million dollars in prize
money, using math and
bluffing. The Apprentice - The Ultimate Job Interview.
American Idol - the
Ultimate Audience fueled singing contest. All VERY
different ideas - and all
released in the last 5 years which makes the market
innovative and fresh - and more
will come. They are all fresh in the game show market -
and that's the theme
of the question.
Jeff: You say "to-may-to", and I say "to-mah-to". None
of these is a fresh
idea. They are all derivative...so there. *sticking
tongue out and blowing
Joe: EVERYTHING is derivative, Jeff. Vote for Gordon.
Jason: *shakes head* Wow.... and I thought this season's
WoF made my head
spin...but anyhoo.... I have to give the vote to Jeff,
because Gordon totally
lost my vote when he said American Idol was among the
original ideas, and Jeff
made his stronger point, I thought.
Jeff: Another nail-biter finish for Jeff Suchard.
Chico: I'm going to recuse myself from voting because no
one said jack about
presentation... The key was presentation. That's where
the innovation lies.
Jeff: So it's a TIE?
Chico: But NO ONE said anything about it!
Gordon: I knew this was coming. We're getting a draw,
Chico: We're getting a draw, yes.
Jason: *steps back into saloon*
Gordon: 1** Jeff: 1
**The appeal letter has been dropped
Chico: I have the next question...
Jeff: Is it multiple choice?
Chico: Yes it is.
Jeff: I don't know if I can keep up this level of
Jason: Whyyy? This is fun. :)
Chico: GSN: Smart move ditching reality? a) Yes? b) No?
Jeff: A qualified A) Yes. I want GAME shows, not pretty
people yakking at
each other. More Black and White Overnight please, and
during the day if you
Chico: So the reality buff gets the reality side. Go,
Gordon: Suuuure - give me the reality argument to a
bunch of reality haters.
Why don't you have me argue the benefits of eating meat
in front of a crowd of
Chico: Ahem. Argue. Now.
Gordon: The only chance I have at this is picking C)
Maybe. Ditching Kenny
and Spenny and Fake-a-date - good. Ditching the Mole -
bad. They did keep Dog
Eat Dog and I think they need to find the happy
medium...That boils down to this
- a good show gets viewers, regardless of the genre,
They can't overload on
one genre (gambling) and ditch the oethers (
Jeff: You are a flip-flopper. Waffler! I should win for
having a strong
Chico: We'll see. Dissect Gordon's.
Gordon: C was one of the choices. The reality show
Celebrity BlackJack is the
highest rated show on GSN this past season, but you
can't renew a million
dollar tournament at the expense of Lingo, a popular
classic show. The bottom
line is that games are ALL games, reality AND classical.
A stong mix gets a
strong rating. They shouldn't make it an all reailty
channel - but reality should
definitely be one of the options for people who like it
Jeff: How can you pick apart an argument that says,
"It's part OK, and part
Gordon: Having a station that is all reality doesn't get
the ratings - nor is
a station that has all classical - GSN tried both
methods and neither of them
Jeff: The name is "GSN", meaning GAMEshow network. I
want games, not
Jason: ( *gasp* )
Gordon: The idea is to have a mix of shows that EVERYONE
will watch - and that's how you get ratings. Have Lingo on Mondays ED on
Tuesdays, Celeb BJ on
Wednesdays, have a GOOD reality show on Thursdays and
maybe a Millionaire/Greed
block on Fridays, it is GAME show network, and casino,
reality and classics are
Jeff: OK Gordon, I realize some people like different
things. But you
didn't really even pick a choice when you went with "C".
"Maybe" means you don't
have an opinion about GSN's programming choice.
Gordon: The questions is a smart move ditching reality
- the answer is
maybe - depending on what they bring in. You cant get rid
of all of it -balance
wins over no balance.
Jeff: How did multiple choice become another debate?
Joe: I have to go with Jeff here. Reality needs to go.
Jason: Okay...Gordon, as usual, made some strong cases
about the need for
reality...and while I would usually agree with that, let
me throw some facts and
figures back....GSN has brought in Street Smarts & Win
Ben Stein's Money, two
strong GAME SHOWS....and you guys remember when the
network got their highest
ratings? During the classic era!! The Big Bucks
documentary and a Whammy!
season premiere. Celeb BlackJack got adequate ratings,
but nowhere near the
numbers that PYL / Big Bucks / Whammy got - therefore,
my vote goes to Jeff,
especially on his case for more B&W overnight.
Gordon: That's so unfair giving an anti-reality question
to an anti-reality
group. Protest. Grumble grumble grumble...
Chico: Just for the record...Okay, one of its highest
draws is blackjack,
Lingo and Dog Eat Dog. While people may lump DED in
reality programming, at its
heart is a simple game show concept. Add that Blackjack
formed many a good
game show in its own rite...Jeff gets my vote.
Gordon: I blame the judge for giving such a slanted
Chico: I wanted to see blood and guts.. and I didn't get
Gordon: How can I, since you asked such a slanted
question. Well, all to make
the guest star happy.
Chico: Oh yeah. Forgot about that...Remember.
Presentation is key.
Jeff: Erythrocytes, Leukocytes, Platelets, Jejunum,
Sigmoid Colon [There!]
Blood and guts for ya
Gordon: 1 Jeff: 2*
*Question under protest
Gordon: You want blood and guts, make the next question
a mutual studio
question one and give us equal footing.
Chico: Okay...Okay...Baby. Final Question - Millionaire
has what it takes to
survive the long haul. Go. Quick answer, Jeff?
Jeff: WWTBAM, unfortunately, does not have what it takes
to survive the long
haul, by which I mean that I do not think it will become
a classic like WoF or
Chico: We're running short here.
Jeff: I love the game, but it is on it's last legs.
Chico: Okay, Gordon.
Gordon: Ratings have increased every single year,
Meredith is coming into her
own. The game has cleared into more stations and better
time slots -what's
not to like? Millionaire is staying for awhile And SUper
WWTBAM will be
sparking it up again in November, as it's the second
highest ranked show on ABC last
Jeff: They are adding gimmicks, which is same kind
of thing we were
criticizing WoF for earlier. the gimmicks are causing
the show to Jump the Shark.
It is no longer a gameshow, but a reality program with a
few questions thrown
Chico: Okay, Judges call?
Joe: Gordon wins this one.
Jason: ......you are both wrong..... the correct answer
is "100 Mexicanos
Dijeron". Happy Hispanic Heritage Month! *gives thumbs
Chico: Word! *gives Jason the pound*
Gordon: Quien deseo un dolares million? Do I get your
Jason: No. :p
Gordon: Nuts to you.
Jason: Jeff now gets the point coz you tried to suck up.
Chico: HA! Should've just left well enough alone..
Gordon: You haven't voted for me ONCE today Jason - I
would expect this vote
to not be any different. So I can tease you a little,
since your vote was
going to be inconsequential to me anyways.
Chico: Jeff said that this was basically not going to be
a classic, while
Gordon gave reasoning as to why it could be. Point to
Jeff: I was really tempted on Final Jeopardy to write,
"Who are two poets who
have never been in my kitchen?"
Chico: There. Tie ball game. Now man-hug or something...
Gordon: *man-hugs Jeff*
Jeff: Aww. Felt nice.
Gordon: 2 Jeff: 2**
Chico: Big Finish time when we return.
Jeff: Is that a box of Clorets in your pocket?
Gordon: *Checks pocket* yep. Want one?
(Brought to you by America's Next Top Model... Builder.
Now with Gundams!)
Gordon: We're back - and it's time to wrap this puppy up
in a bow with The
Big Finish. Will we be seeing a finale of LCS 3?
Chico: I won't.
Jeff: If it's not on my TiVo, I'm not going to be
Gordon: You're not going to watch a Father of the Pride
Marathon to see the
Chico: I don't know.. I don't think I'd even watch
Father of the Pride to see
Jason: I'll be too busy praying to the altar of Tomarken.
Jeff: What are two shows that don't interest me much,
Alex? I'll be watching
"Lost" to see when the Sleestaks appear.
Chico: That's what I'm talking about.
Jeff: Cuz they are in the Land of the Lost, right?
Jason: LOL, oooooh *does stink face*
Chico: We'll have to see once the claymation dinosaurs
appear... Because we
can't afford CGI =p
Joe: Are you forgetting Wesley Eure?
Chico: After watching him on Finders Keepers I'd like
Jeff: They can't afford anything on that show. C'mon,
the monster is
invisible! give me a break. That's a cheap out for the
Gordon: I was thinking of crappy cgi dinos , but
claymation would work - is
there a twist that would actually shake things around in
Chico: Probably... not.
Jason: Then forget "Lost" and "Survivor"..... I've got
some more Spanish
game show goodness.... "Mega Match Sensational" !!!
Gordon: Will Mega Match Sensational ever be
Chico: Keep in mind my local Univision station doesn't
Jason: The bonus round rules all.
Jeff: What about a "ghost" third tribe that the others
don't know about and
not the people already voted out. That wouldn't be
innovative. ;-) Karaoke
competition on Survivor? Crosses Survivor and American
Idol. Call it Vanuatu Idol.
Jason: *shakes head*
Chico: More than likely it'll give something to talk
about during Tribal
Council, and speaking of something to talk about...
Guess what? We have mail!
Jeff: "We've got mail, it never fails, it makes me want
to wag my tail, when
it comes I want to wail, 'MAIL'!"
Jason: LOL *gets my Blue plushie*
Chico: This one came from Keith Williams, you remember
him right? College
champ, J! Tourney player...
Gordon: He reads the column? Nice.
Chico: Very. Anyway, he says...
Jason: *Blue barks!*
"Tom's wager on Oct. 1 was inconsequential. The most he
could make was
$37,300: $8,800 + $8,800 + $19,700. Russ' $37,450 beats
him by $150. Players can't
re-wager on what they had at the end of day 1. Even if
Tom had wagered
everything and both of them had gotten it wrong, Russ'
$16,950 comes up short and
Tom wins. The closest thing to a mistake was his $1500
wager on the $800 African
Capitals DD on Day 1 he could have made a killing."
Chico: Your thoughts?
Gordon: This is why I don't go on Jeopardy - for fear of
puling a Cliff -
though I still think he should have bet more at the end
of the first day of the
finals with a subject that it seemed like he was
comfortable with. YOU PLAY TO
WIN THE GAME!
Jason: "What are three men who have never been in my
Jeff: It's too easy to armchair quarterback this game. I
don't easily freak
out or choke under pressure, but making my FJ wager was
very tough at the time.
I say "Good Job" to everyone in the TOC.
Gordon: I agree - just a good job to everyone who
appears on Jeopardy in
general - it's very tough to get in and get on TV.
Chico: Well met. Just a friendly reminder that you can
send your own opinion
on anything from Jeopardy! To Survivor to three men who
have never been in
Jason's kitchen to us here at WLTI... The address, one
more time, Gordon?
Gordon: That would be
again to Joe, Jason
and our VERY SPECIAL master debater Jeff Suchard.
Jeff: Thanks for inviting me. It was very special.
Gordon: Have you fed Ken in your basement yet?
Jeff: Fed him to what?
Chico: We're back next week with more... stuff... And
hey, happy birthday to
us, by the way. It's our second birthday!
Gordon: We'll have a very special second anniversary
party on the next episode
Chico: We were supposed to have one this week, but with
Jeff showing up...
You know, these things happen!
Gordon: So for everyone here, this is Gordon saying Game
Chico: For Gordon, Jason, Joe, and everyone here at GSNN,
I'm Chico, and
until next time... game.... yeah, what he said.
Joe: Too slow, Chico.
Chico: I know. Take us home, Jeff...
Jeff: (singing) We're so glad to have this time
together... Just to have a
laugh and sing a song...
Jason: "Mega Match" on Telefutura at noon today!
Jeff: We've hardly started but then before you know
it... Its time for us to
say, SO LONG...